![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
..I find fandom depressing. There are many reasons for this but chief amongst these is the attitude towards the BDSM scene and related subjects.
I swear, if I read one more comment which suggests all BDSM in fanfic is character abuse, or refers to the practice as 'deviant behaviour' or implies that any story containing BDSM, has, by definition to be badly written and wrong, I shall punch someone in the nose.
I'd rather read a bad BDSM or slave!fic over one more story containing any of the following; cute children or pets, mind numbing descriptions of food and food preparation, detailed references to what clothing style, items and labels the characters are wearing or revoltingly sentimental holiday references.
I had this discussion a few months ago with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sidhe_woman, bigtitch and jhava where it was decided that my biggest *squick* would be a story where Methos and Duncan marry, settle down and adopt a small child who can magically turn into an adorable kitten which Methos carries around in his coat pocket, in between cooking amazing meals for his beloved Dunkie-Wunkie and them both going shopping for clothes which match each others eyes. At Thanksgiving.
*shudders*
N/B If upon reading this you are offended and think I am referring to you or anything you or your bestest friend, have said/written. *YES* I wrote this with specifically you/them in mind. Next week I plan to locate where you live and then scrawl abusive graffiti on your house.
I swear, if I read one more comment which suggests all BDSM in fanfic is character abuse, or refers to the practice as 'deviant behaviour' or implies that any story containing BDSM, has, by definition to be badly written and wrong, I shall punch someone in the nose.
I'd rather read a bad BDSM or slave!fic over one more story containing any of the following; cute children or pets, mind numbing descriptions of food and food preparation, detailed references to what clothing style, items and labels the characters are wearing or revoltingly sentimental holiday references.
I had this discussion a few months ago with
sidhe_woman, bigtitch and jhava where it was decided that my biggest *squick* would be a story where Methos and Duncan marry, settle down and adopt a small child who can magically turn into an adorable kitten which Methos carries around in his coat pocket, in between cooking amazing meals for his beloved Dunkie-Wunkie and them both going shopping for clothes which match each others eyes. At Thanksgiving. *shudders*
N/B If upon reading this you are offended and think I am referring to you or anything you or your bestest friend, have said/written. *YES* I wrote this with specifically you/them in mind. Next week I plan to locate where you live and then scrawl abusive graffiti on your house.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
From:
no subject
I'm getting mightily tired of people who will happiily read/write violent non-con, OOC fluff, and vomit-inducing sap but who will turn around and sniffily announce that BDSM is a squick too far. Great, I think - then you won't be reading my stuff and I don't have to worry about morons getting it all dirty.
It's about time we have a decent Kink!Fic challenge, don't you think? Interested in Original Fic this time or only fannish?
From:
*laughing*
What continues to astonish me is that the people who so actively disapprove/dislike anything remotely BDSM related seem to love really extreme hurt/comfort. WTF?
I have stories for the webpage actually, plus another fic challenge would be great. I think both original and fandom. I just need to find the time. Give me a couple of days and I promise I'll be caught up. Then we can talk .
*rubs hands together*
From:
Re: *laughing*
Adn I'm writing some christmas-challenge story that will be bdsm-y :D (not entirely sure yet, I'm still in the "Meeep" planning stage *G*)
From:
Re: *laughing*
I avoid those things for the sake of my sanity.
What continues to astonish me is that the people who so actively disapprove/dislike anything remotely BDSM related seem to love really extreme hurt/comfort. WTF?
Because h/c lets them get off on their own pain kinks without having to let the world know they find it erotic?
From:
Your a genius..
..now I want an icon with 'hurt/comfort the acceptable face of S&M' on it :)
From:
Re: Your a genius..
something like this?
From:
Re: Your a genius..
You will be corrupted yet!
From:
Re: Your a genius..
It took me, oooh, five minutes? And unlike *some* people, I don't have an exam to study for (and if I pushed myself, I could still probably write a couple of thousand words before I go to bed ;p)
[ps - just heard from a mutual friend in Florida, and she is fine, still working at her job though soon to finish. They personally came through Wilma fine, though the neighbourhood lost a lot of trees]
Back to work, missy!
From:
Re: Your a genius..
We know, we know!
She finally got back in touch, huh? Good to know she's all okay after the long silences! :-)
From:
no subject
Gods, yes.
I can't even add anything to that!
From:
no subject
Gahhhhhh
I love you !!
From:
no subject
There also seems to be a conflating of non-con and BDSM in some people's minds, which is completely inaccurate, of course. But some people who don't like BDSM may not do so because they don't like non-con and think they're one and the same. Completely missing the point about *consent*, of course.
I think the solution is for you and the good BDSM writers out there to continue to write more and more of the good stuff. *g* Drown out the bad BDSM stories! Down with bad BDSM and yay! for the good ones.
*smiles hopefully*
From:
no subject
And I think you're onto something here. A lot of times, people dismiss something whole cloth because they've only seen a bad example of it (slash, RPF, noncon, BDSM, etc.) And I have to say, truthfully, I think that's true of kitten stories, food stories, etc. It's just that, perhaps, there are more of them, so you have to sift more to get to the rare gems. Maybe. All I know is, I never thought I'd read a kitten story until Theresa Coffman wrote one. And Food + Sex is a huge turnoff for me, until Unovis made me realize how it could work.
YMMV, natch.
From:
Please see..
I agree that there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. I wouldn't be irritated if people acknowledged that while there are some very bad BDSM stories out there, there are also some good ones. It's the assumption that they are all bad simply because they involve BDSM which I find infuriating.
I know the kitten story of which you speak as well. It rocks, as does most of Theresa's stories.
I think we can all agree that gross generalizations are a Bad Thing. Sometimes it is an effective means of getting a point across. I feel like I want to take the extreme opposite to some of the opinions constantly expressed in general fandom just because someone has to even the balance.
If we have to have warnings for BDSM can we also have warnings for kittens and children? *grins*
From:
Re: Please see..
I'd be for that. I still haven't found the kid story that works for me. I wrote one once, actually, but the kid was Saavik, so that seemed different somehow. Although after the fact, I wondered what the heck possessed me. *g*
Assumptions and generalizations are always dumb and annoying. (she generalized ;-)
From:
True..
Hell, I thought I'd never read a story featuring children. Then I read
The truth is that much of the reasons for this continual bashing is simply because people have knee jerk, bad-wrong-evil reactions to BDSM which bleed through into their responses to stories. No one actually wants to come across as narrow minded however so they just make deeply uninformed comments. I swear rather then "I have many friends who are gay" as the standard disclaimer it's "I have many friends who are into BDSM"..
Unsurprisingly, this pisses me off.
What I am particularly referring to is the wide spread view that anything which involves BDSM automatically = bad writing.
The reasoning for this is frequently that 'the characters wouldn't behave like this and the writer is simply catering to their kinks'.
One of the reasons I started the Kink!Fic Challenge was an attempt to demonstrate that 'anything' can be a kink and that a large majority of fanfic could therefore be criticized in the same way.
Personally I find the idea of Methos and Duncan settling down to domestic bliss as OOC. That's the way I see it and what I take from watching the TV series. I rarely, however, feel the need to constantly tell people who write these kinds of stories that they are 'abusing the characters' and bad writers.
The non-con and BDSM confusion is a whole 'nother kettle of worms. Don't get me started on that, or the people who tell me I'm sick for liking BDSM and then claim that extreme hurt/comfort is their fic type of choice.
The solution is to write more good BDSM stories. I am hoping to run another story challenge shortly. Hopefully some of the responses will assist in this direction. As always a pleasure to read your thought.
From:
Re: True..
Haven't read The Deep, as yet, because it's a WIP and Entreat Me Not to Leave Thee (which hits my kinks *so hard*) remains unfinished decades later. So, I'm not reading it until she's finished it, to prevent the frustration and spitting at the keyboard wanting the rest *now*. *g*
I can understand your anger at people who have this knee-jerk reaction that BDSM = bad. To say that the characters would never behave like this smacks of arrogance, because what gives them such a unique insight? Who are *they* to say never? I think it's fair to say that some characters need more work to place convincingly into a BDSM scenario than others but in the hands of a good enough writer pretty much anything is possible.
Even mpreg. Yes. I've actually read one mpreg that I liked. It was written from a humorous perspective BTW, but not as a broad comedy.
And I couldn't agree more about kinks. If those people who adore hurt/comfort, or kidfic, or curtainfic can't recognise that it's as much a kink as BDSM or non-con, or whatever else floats your boat, then they lack insight into both themselves and fanfiction generally. That said, I know several people who adore H/C who will freely acknowledge that it's a kink. I think what it boils down to is there are stupid people everywhere.
From:
Re: True..
This strikes me as a kind of denial. BDSM and its derivatives are common enough these days, according to surveys and so on, that just about everyone knows people who engage in it, whether they realize it or not. Enjoyment of BDSM doesn't show, or at least it doesn't have to; "normal" people do it, and no one who knows them casually is the wiser. Folks who are made afraid or turned-off by sexual power play don't want to imagine that their favorite TV character might actually be "like that," anymore than they want to know that their insurance agent or their nurse or their lawyer goes home to a lovely spanking.
From:
no subject
It's true that BDSM fics don't fit my particular kinks, but slashfic invonving the guys settling down with children and/or fluffy animals and cute ickle wickle wuvvykins names make me ride the porcelain bus to Hurltown much quicker *g*
From:
*grins*
I feel I should say that I don't really expect everyone to like BDSM stories. It may well not be someone's cup of tea. People should read what they want to read.
What I get annoyed about is the constant poking about how such stories automatically = bad, OOC writing.
It makes me want to rant about how much I hate fluffy stories. Hence the outburst :)
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
I have a RP character who's in a 24/7 bdsm relationship and I write heavy blood play with him in one moment and write about him cuddling for hours with his cute 3-legged cat in the next :D
And I swear I'm normal ;-)
From:
no subject
Normal can be a good thing =0)
*MY* definition of normal isn't everyone elses coz mine does not = boring!
To me its normal to read smut and look at nekkid men having sex with each other lol
From:
no subject
From:
Thing is...
..there is nothing wrong with liking what you like. Nor does it mean that all stories which have happy endings or which feature kittens or whatever are bad.
Anymore then all stories which feature BDSM are bad. I'm being extreme to make a point really. I feel obnoxious today :)
People should read what they want to read.
..even if it involves telepathic unicorns!
From:
Re: Thing is...
Are you gonna write it????
ducking and running =0)
From:
no subject
*turns off the interweb*
*watches Secretary again*
From:
True...
..sometimes I just feel like being obnoxious though :)
From:
no subject
*goes back to writing more about zabaglione and Methos roasting sex-goats for dinner while pregnant with Duncan's magic baby*
From:
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Okay you win!
From:
no subject
That comes out of Duncan's magically appearing vagina.
From:
no subject
From:
and..
..lactating gorilla rape.
From:
Re: and..
From:
Re: and..
AAArrrgggghhhh!!!! That was a buried memory that needed to stay buried...must go find alcohol to forget!!!
From:
Re: and..
From:
Re: and..
I really thought I'd killed the brain cells with those memories on them, but it turns out not.
Must drink more.
From:
no subject
It's an intriguing discussion of how humans are deepwired, almost genetically, to find some person/group to call the Outsider that they fear and hate. It's how the us-vs-them principle is a fundamental driver in the human psyche.
Which might mean that's why people do it, even when it's hypocritical or makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.
From:
no subject
And I'd be totally in for a kink!fic challenge. :D
From:
no subject
People are simply dim-wits everywhere. One thing I've never understood is why someone can get upset with BDSM-- which is a consentual act between adults, and not get upset with h/c where a character gets raped or beaten/tortured against her/his will.
Yes there are bad stories out there. But it's not because it's about BDSM, but because the author has not written a good story ~~ her characterizations are off or her plot has holes in it or not developed well.
One thing that could be a problem is that the author doesn't have a good grip on what BDSM is, herself ~~ maybe she's interested and would like to know more, but is just missing something vital and, therefore, it's missing from the story. I've wrestled with that problem, myself. Because reading about it and experiencing it are two totally different things. And if you haven't had the experience yourself, how can you truthfully write about how someone else is feeling going through the experience?
Everyone has their likes and dislikes. And certain things squick all of us for one reason or another. I dislike major character death fic. Not a squick. Would just rather not read it. I like the idea of Duncan and Methos finding one another and living happily ever after, but nothing in canon suggests that would happen. Those two are absolutely volatile together.
And I love that about them too.
From:
no subject
I've seen it done in really bad fics, but I've seen much worse things in really bad fics, so I don't count that.
I'm currently writing a story with a child in it. Cute or not is a matter of POV (all my friends think that a four year old stabbing someone in the foot is adorable, what do I know). I am however aware that I'm indulging myself in fluff because of personal issues.
I'm not giving this speech because I think your rant was about me, just contributing two agorot :)
From:
no subject
*Files away lots of good ideas*
*Flees!*
*Muuahahahaha!*
From:
no subject
Also, people are crap. Ignore their small and petty minds when it comes to BDSM.